Report 95
Report #95 Skillset: Druidry Skill: Pathtwist Org: Ebonguard Status: Completed Dec 2008 Furies' Decision: We'll make it not trigger on elevation movements. We also are going to change Pathtwist to prevent use at Avatars. Problem: Currently Pathtwist fires on climbing up / climbing down, which does not actually involve walking along a path. Further, given the need to climb down to avoid things like Sap, there is little way to avoid this. 0 R: 0 Solution #1: Pathtwist should not fire upon climbing up / moving down. It could, however, fire on some of the other movements that DO use paths (instead of just directions, it could also fire on Tumble/Leap for example). Player Comments: ---on 11/28 @ 19:28 writes: Rad runes, or any -forced- movement of any kind does not trigger pathtwist. This has been fully tested. Only movement you issue yourself causes pathtwist to fire. ---on 11/28 @ 20:12 writes: I have to wonder if this was tested at all before the suggestion was made. In testing with Dylara; Bond Unite didn't set off Pathtwist. Teleport didn't set off Pathtwist. Rad rune has never set off Pathtwist (This one keeps coming up and keeps being proven that it doesn't happen). I can't easily test Crow Track, but I am betting it also doesn't set off Pathtwist. ---on 11/28 @ 20:31 writes: Testing with Talan; Shadowdance Flight did not set off Pathtwist once. Sprint did not set off Pathtwist once. ---on 11/28 @ 21:12 writes: Testing with Iasmos; Tumble did not set off pathtwist once. Leap did not set off pathtwist once. There are apparently numerous ways to bypass pathtwist and I don't see climbing up and climbing down as needed to be removed from the few things that apparently do set off pathtwist. If proof is provided that these things are setting off pathtwist and my testing numerous methods with various people are giving false results I may change my opinion to this suggestion. ---on 11/28 @ 21:18 writes: Actually on rethinking, if all conscious movement is made to affect pathtwist, i.e tumbling, sprinting, leaping... then I am fine with climb up and climb down being made to not set off pathtwist. ---on 12/1 @ 17:50 writes: I am fine with this change, ---as long as---, things like tumble, leap, sprint are put into the list of what will set off pathtwist. Otherwise, I am against the change as even the arguement for it is a misleading arguement, in that if you are avoiding sap, you have more effectively evaded it by climbing down and being pulled through a path away from the sapping druid, and if the druid wasn't there trying to sap you, you were not avoiding sap to begin with and just got pulled through a path as though you walked. Applying "reality" to "fantasy" doesn't cut it as an arguement, or else we will have to start removing a whole lot of skills in Lusternia. ---on 12/3 @ 02:17 writes: "You have more effectively evaded it by climbing down and being pulled through a path away from the sapping druid"-- and toward, say, an aggressive Supermob that will instakill you instead? I don't mind those things being included, but saying that pathtwist in that case is beneficial is untrue. Someone moving further into your demesne is always helpful to you, because if they climbed down they were already unsappable. And it's that much more time before they're able to tumble out if they end up needing to. ---on 12/8 @ 20:09 writes: You are making a case that pathtwist is only ever used to go to Smobs. This is completely untrue. In fact, most of my use of pathtwist is nowhere near an Smob and being taken away from the druid, be it "further" into the demesne or not which is again arguable as nothing but a semantic, is still being taken away from the druid and there is little to fear from a demesne of any kind without someone in the room to make use of the effects hitting you. So yes, Pathtwist can be used to take you to a dangerous situation it can also save the person, much like treelife itself could. Nor did I say pathtwist taking you to an Smob is beneficial as an escape. ---on 12/10 @ 23:08 writes: Sure, you can argue it as a semantic if you want, but it's pretty obvious that being deeper in the demesne is harder to get out of (briars, further time to tumble if you're fighting the Druid and need to get out that way, etc). Further, you have the choice to use Pathtwist. You choose to use it in areas where Supermobs are located, with the center at a Supermob. You choose to use it in other areas... when it gives you a tactical advantage to do so. The mere fact that you use it seems to indicate you don't agree with your stated comments-- you wouldn't do so if it didn't give you, on the whole, more of an edge than it costs you. Especially since using it in Ethereal Serenwilde to Supermobs costs you nothing. ---on 12/10 @ 23:10 writes: As a clarification, that is "costs you nothing in terms of that edge." ---on 12/23 @ 07:48 writes: I'd like to comment that I personally experienced pathtwist firing on leap and sprinting yesterday. I was having silly druid battles with Lehki and thought I'd try it out since I heard about Gregori's tests. They do in fact trigger pathtwist. I'm led to believe that the code triggers all forms of physical movement and does not trigger on magical movement which is why teleport, flight, ectera, ectera do not trigger it according to Gregori ---on 12/23 @ 08:46 writes: I'd be fine with it not triggering on climb down/up, so long as it triggers on all other natural movements ---on 12/23 @ 22:04 writes: Various other movement skills that had been previously tested are now proccing pathtwist so I have no issue with climb up/down being changed to not proc it ---on 12/25 @ 04:20 writes: This won't address the imbalance of giving 1 demesne guild of 4 a limited, yet passive and groupwide form of demesne summon, a skill that caused a huge amount of problems for group combat. And no, the % chance thing doesn't justify it, just as it wouldn't justify giving cudgel a 1% chance to instakill you. If it were up to me, this skill would be completely changed in scope to a regular affliction demesne effect, but oh well, this is a start. ---on 12/25 @ 09:53 writes: I have a question. Can this trigger on forced movements such as gust, tackle, charge, barge, squall, rad? I'd imagine it does work for things such as tackle, barge, charge, gust perhaps. Things like this would force me to agree with Ceren. The very large majority of fights is in groups. There are almost no 1v1 fights outside of Arena. Even the ones outside of the Arena do not last long as groups can interfere. I heard Sarrasri and Thoros had a small 1v1 in the middle of a Domoth battle. Passive demesne summon is going to need more changes altogether if not just scrapping the whole ordeal. Proper melds -force- opposing teams to pass through the demesne and seeing as pathtwist can passively fire upon all forms of physical movements, there is nothing to stop that. A bandaid fix would be to make it blocked by protection scroll, but even that will only fix it for so long especially as I also agree that druids have a need for a protection scroll stripping ability that I think is in another report. ---on 12/28 @ 10:01 writes: It sounds like you guys just don't think the ability should exist in a usable form at all. Replacing it would be better than crippling it in that scenario (I'm not saying this change alone would cripple it, more looking at the "going to need more changes altogether" comment.) Also, no it does not work on forced movement, or didn't before anyway. ---on 12/29 @ 01:05 writes: Well, things like "fade when the caster dies" (which all other demesne effects have to my knowledge, I've no idea why this one doesn't) would not prevent it from being usable, and I think that's the sort of thing that his comment was aiming at. ---on 12/30 @ 05:21 writes: This is not a "true" demesne effect. In fact you don't even use the Demesne syntax with it. It is an effect that can be cast only in a demesne, that is all. Fading on death means remove the power cost of it. If you want to treat it like a demesne effect, in such a manner. ---on 12/31 @ 15:49 writes: 1 seems better. Illusion detection is too specialized to hide it completely IMO ---on 12/31 @ 15:50 writes: Ignore above